Dinah's Name Changed

[Impulse]

I picked up an old comic book for a quarter and read it. It was Black Canary (Dinah) and Superman. But it said that her name wasn't Dinah Laurel Lance it was Dinah Drake Lance. Does anyone know when they changed her name? Everything else seemed to check out right, her mother was the first Black Canary and Dinah had the Canary Cry. But what's with the name?

[Jesse321]

Technically her name didn't change ... your talking about 3 different Black Canary's.

(BC # 1) Dinah Drake Lance is/was the mother who was the ORIGINAL BC in the comic books ... BOP (the show) changed her name to (BC # 2) Caroline Lance (she was played by Lori Loughlin) and gave her the Canary Cry ... where that name come from is anyone's guess, and as its been recently pointed out to me the mother never had the cry.

BC # 3) Dinah Laurel Lance ... is the daughter who is the current BC in the comics ... she has the Canary Cry ... BOP (the show) gave her mental powers (touch telepathy and telekinisis) agian why is anyone's guess ... but suffice it to say the Dinah that appears on the show DOES NOT exist in the books.

Here are several websites that should have all the answers you might be looking for.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/7393/wwbc1.html


http://my.execpc.com/~icicle/BLACKCANARY.html


http://www.braveandthebold.com/characters/3482.html


http://www.geocities.com/area51/shadowlands/4733/CANARY.htm

[jaguarin]

Listen Jesse, he is "The Central Walking Library of Comic Books", an expert.... :p

[Frostbite]

Originally posted by Jesse321
(BC # 1) Dinah Drake Lance is/was the mother who was the ORIGINAL BC in the comic books ... BOP (the show) changed her name to (BC # 2) Caroline Lance (she was played by Lori Loughlin) and gave her the Canary Cry ... where that name come from is anyone's guess, and as its been recently pointed out to me the mother never had the cry.

BC # 3) Dinah Laurel Lance ... is the daughter who is the current BC in the comics ... she has the Canary Cry ... BOP (the show) gave her mental powers (touch telepathy and telekinisis) agian why is anyone's guess ... but suffice it to say the Dinah that appears on the show DOES NOT exist in the books.

No. Dinah Drake-Lance is the mother of Dinah Laurel Lance. Dinah Laurel Lance's name was changed to Carolyn Lance for the show, and Dinah Redmond is Carolyn's daughter. For a more visual representation, one can click here (http://geocities.com/bopfamilytree/can.html).

[DBZ_EXP]

so the simple answer tothe question posed is that it's was the old Black Canary

[Frostbite]

What was the question posed?

[DrayvensCrow]

I think it had something to do with a cheeseburger! LOL:D

[Jesse321]

FB .. if you read my response to the question its COMPLETELY accurate ,,, and you did nothing but restate the same thing that I stated with the exception of adding the adopted name of Redmond which was only ever used in the show.

[Frostbite]

No. You said Dinah Drake-Lance was changed to Carolyn Lance and given the Canary Cry and that Dinah Laurel Lance was changed to Dinah from the show. I said that Dinah Drake-Lance is "Carolyn"s mother, and "Carolyn" is Dinah's mother.

[Jesse321]

And she was ... Dinah Drake Lance was the mother in the books .. in the show she was Caroline Lance and she was given the Carnary cry for the SHOW !!

So my statement is correct !

[Frostbite]

No!

There seems to be some sort of communication error here. I'm reading your statement as:

Comics:
Dinah Drake-Lance is the mother of Dinah Laurel Lance. Dinah Laurel Lance has the Canary Cry.
Show:
DDL's name was changed to Carolyn Lance and given the Canary Cry and is the mother of Dinah Lance/Dinah Redmond, who has mental powers.

But what I'm trying to say is:

Comics:
Dinah Drake-Lance is the mother of Dinah Laurel Lance. Dinah Laurel Lance has the Canary Cry.
Show:
DLL's name was changed to Carolyn and Dinah Lance III/Dinah Redmond is her daughter. Carolyn/Dinah Laurel has the Canary Cry as she did in the comics, and she is the mother of Dinah Redmond, who has mental powers.

[Jesse321]

NO your reading it wrong .. thats why I specified the show and the books.

Caroline Lance and DDL are one and the same (or at least they are supposed to be)... in the show she had the Cry .. in the books she didn't.

DLL who is the current BC in the books and has the cry is Dinah Redmond (again.. or is supposed to be) on the show and has mental powers instead of the cry.

sheesh

[Frostbite]

No! Carolyn Lance and Dinah Laurel Lance are one in the same. Dinah Drake-Lance is Carolyn's mother.

[Impulse]

Okay, sorry to post a debate. I was just wondering. I think I agree with Jesse321. I saw the pictures and the info and it looked like the Canary in the book. And it said that she wore a wig and was a florist. Thanks, Jesse.

[Frostbite]

Dinah Drake-Lance wore a wig. Dinah Laurel Lance first wore a wig, but later dyed her hair blonde (and as you can see in the show, Carolyn is not wearing a wig. She has dyed blonde hair).

[Jesse321]

WHAT THE HELL DOES A WIG HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING ??

There have only ever been 2 Black Canarys ..not 3 !!

DDL who was the ORIGINAL BC and DLL who is the CURRENT !!

CL is DDL not DLL ... Dinah Remond would have been DLL if the show had done it right.

CL NEVER existed in the books !! it was an invention of the show and the show ONLY !!! and no mention in the episode AT ALL was made to imply that this was a 3rd generation BC because I just watched the episode again.

[Frostbite]

Look: Drake existed in the 1940s. Laurel exists present day, and has worked with Oracle. "Sins of the Mother" implied that Carolyn worked with Oracle. There have only ever been 2 Black Canarys ..not 3 !! And as I've said many times, the show takes place in the future. So the fact that there are only two Black Canaries now means not a thing.

[Jesse321]

Whatever dude .. your wrong .. the show only takes place about 7 years so we are back to this age thing again. the numbers don't add up ... the show took too many liberties with the comics which was my major grip with it from the begining.

The show works OUTSIDE of the comics and in the comics neither of the two BC EVER changed thier names which is the basis for this question in the first place.

[Frostbite]

No, the name change is simply Hypertime.

Either way, I give up. Go on thinking what you think, and I'll just think what I think.

[Jesse321]

Hypertime was never even touched on the show or in the BOP book ... but your right .. please feel free to think what you like .. you will anyway.

[Impulse]

Okay then. I'm getting really confused. But thanks anyway for answering my question.

[DrayvensCrow]

:rolleyes: Oh, brother! Here we go again! Hwen a show changes things in continuity, then it automatically becomes an "Elseworlds", get it? CL would then be DDL, and so on....

[Frostbite]

Originally posted by DrayvensCrow
CL would then be DDL, and so on....
No! Carolyn Lance is the replacement for Dinah Laurel Lance!

[Jesse321]

Originally posted by Impulse
Okay then. I'm getting really confused. But thanks anyway for answering my question.

Impulse ... heres what it all boils down to in a nutshell ... you have 2 possible reailites here.

Reality # 1) you have the comic book .... Dinah as she exists on the show has NEVER been introduced into the comics ... so she doesn't exist in any way shape or form ... in the comics you have 2 (count them) 2 Black Canary's ... # 1 was Dinah Drake Lance who was the ORIGINAL BC ... she is now dead (again we are talking about the books ONLY here) ... # 2 is Dinah Laurel Lance ... she is the daughter of the original BC and has taken up the mantle and is the current BC ... you also have to note that the version of the Huntress used in the show was wiped from reality and thus never existed either post crisis.

Reality # 2) You have the show ... I'm finally understanding what FB is trying to convey .. he says that Dinah Redmond is the daughter of DLL (BC # 2) so technically she would be BC # 3 ... while this is an EXTREME (and I do mean EXTREME) stretch .. its not COMPLETELY impossible .. though the show NEVER once hinted at Caroline Lance being the BC # 2 and not # 1 .. but again its not impossible ... just improbable.

As you originally posted your question ... you asked when did she change her name and you referenced the "old comic" that you bought, so I answered your question strictly in those parameters .... in the comics neither BC ever changed thier names ... they were two different women.

In the show the names were changed ... realities were changed ... and alternate universes were all mixed up ... this was the MAIN reason alot of the comicbook fanboys couldn't swallow the show and still can't to this day ... this show as it stands, in so far as the comics are concerned, is considered and Elseworlds type project by just about everyone .. is that why it failed ... maybe ... maybe not .. but thats a debate for another thread.

THERE ... is everyone happy now ?

[DrayvensCrow]

Nope! Not while someone is being contrary...:D

[Jesse321]

LOL .. Shut Up Dray :D

[Impulse]

Thanks, I get it now. Thanks for explaining everything. I hope you guys don't send each other hate mail because you keep arguing.

[Jesse321]

Don't worry we argue like this all the time around here ... things like this are bound to crop up when TV execs can't keep comicbook history straight.

[Sxygrrl Huntress]

Yes, these boys are very passionate about their comic discussions :D

[Jesse321]

LOL ... you have no idea ... you should come to one of the conventions and hear the "debates" .... they actually have round table discussions about this kind of stuff.

[Frostbite]

It's things like this, the complete disregard for continuity in some things, that makes me wish I never got into comics, because it's gotten to the point where I have to keep a chart. And even worse, I got into comics when there was Adam West Batman marathon on TV, so now I have to find a way to reconcile everything so that the show runs in "real time" (except for the third season, in which the episodes were immediatly after eachother), but also making all other continuity, too (serials, comics, TV shows, Hostess ads, newsletters, novels, writer commentary, easy reading books for three year olds), so the dates of the occurences in the third season are based around the 1967 East Coast Surfing Championships, the Birds of Prey show happens in 1987 and 1988, and the whole Y2K thing in the Superman comics happened in 1977 (which doesn't make much sense), and inflation rates didn't rise because Luthor was President in 1978 instead of Carter, and Tim Drake failed a year or two in high school, and JJ Thunder is only 11 instead of 15 in the JSA comics that are running right now, and Saturn Girl's middle name is Ironass, and Mary Marvel still has the fleetness of Zephyrus and the beauty of Aurora, and the Mohican Indians lived in New Jersey, and although Wonder Woman was physically an adult while she debuted, in reality she was only around 13 (because when she was molded out of clay, she was physically 11 or some such, I can't really remember; it's all too confusing), and the Crisis happened in 1970, and Nightwing and the rest of the Titans are almost 30 years old now, and Lois Lane had a small career as Elastic Lass, and Superman and M'Onel can travel through time, and M'Onel never had a career as Valor but retains his Pocket Universe origin, but still has the name M'Onel as a hero codename instead of M'Onel, and don't even get me started with the rest of the LSH, and Lesley Gore has a criminal record, and Zatara's adventures in Action Comics took place in real time but were after he married Sindella and begat Zatanna, and I still haven't figured out when Dinah Laurel Lance was born, because if she was 19 at the JLA's start in 1963, that would mean she was born in 1944, which was before Dinah Drake even got married, and all of this takes up so much of my time I'm going insane!

[Jesse321]

Which is why I keep telling you that comic time doesn't run like real time .... your trying to put together a cohesive timeline for events that predate, preceed, overlap, continue and in some cases never happened ... its no wonder your going nuts ... your trying to accomplish something that can't be done with the raw materials you have to work with.

And DC doesn't hold a monopoly on this trait by any means ... look at the X-Men ... the orginal team premiered in the early 1960's and the were already in thier late teens at that time. Look at them in present day ... technology has advanced to the point of inter-galactic and trans dimensional travel, yet they still look like they are in thier late 20's to early 30's when they should be in thier early 60's if time flowed in "real time"

Comics like life in general has to be taken with a grain of salt ... the reason I could get past all the inconsistances in BOP is cause I never thought it was in the same DC universe as the comics ... they just used various elements from VARIOUS realities.

This is basically what happens when you have too many cooks in the kitchen and none of them know whats on the menu. COIE and the definative History of the DC Universe was SUPPOSED to put to bed all these arguements by putting everything into one cohesive timeline ... but 10 15 and 20 years later were going back to the same problem ... and as far as i'm concerned its the Chief Editors fault for allowing it.

"Real Time" comics have been tried (not that I have read any of them) but even they have inconsistancies that true fanboys catch ... you looking for absolute perfection in a place that it doesn't exist.

[Frostbite]

But I can't stop trying to fit everything in! You just can't stop thinking something you've been thinking for years! I realize it's pointless and stupid, but my mind automatically converts some of the things! For example, when I watch Smallville, I have to picture them in fifties clothing, and I'm constantly looking up on the internet for when things were invented and if something wasn't invented my mind has to create a suitable replacement. Computers for the most part are typewriters and a bunch of file folders (which really makes Oracle's character hard to comprehend up until the early eighties {so the TV show still makes sense in that regard}) and most of the time, when people are on cellphones in their car, my mind has them pulled over and talking on a payphone. And all these references to TV shows that won't air for another decades {"You're going all CSI on me!"} overwork my mind. And none of the DCU, at any time, can make Scooby-Doo or Brady Bunch references, because Batman and Robin were on an episode of The New Scooby-Doo movies, and Wonder Woman and Superman appeared in two episodes of The Brady Kids.

[Jesse321]

LOL ... okay I'm booking a room at Bellvue for you ... good luck.

[Frostbite]

And here's a classic one that comes just short being able to work: In the formation of the JLA, when deciding what to call their team, Barry Allen, being a comic book fan, suggests "The Avengers", and Dinah Lance says, "Nah, people would confuse us with the other guys. You know, John Steed and Emma Peel." Unfortunately, in my twisted, continuity abiding mind, the JLA was formed in July of 1963. The Avengers comic book didn't come out until September '63, and although the Avengers TV show (which was what Dinah was referring to) came out in January 1961, Emma Peel was not introduced until October 1965. Sigh. Maybe Barry could've said "The All Winners Squad" (which was the Marvel supergroup in the 1940s).

[Jesse321]

LOL :::: passes FB a bottle of Valuim ::::

[DrayvensCrow]

SO, how long have you had this problem with multiple histories? Perhaps you should lay down on the couch?*grabs pen and notepad*

[Frostbite]

If you want to see a product of my insanity, I've attached a screenshot of "The Chart".

[Impulse]

Wow, Frost. You really have been thinking about this a long time.

[Jesse321]

LOL .. DAMN FB ... I thought I had alot of time on my hands.

[Impulse]

Funny, Jesse.

[Frostbite]

I've only been working on the Chart for about a year (I think it was the second Saturday of May '02 to be precise).

[DrayvensCrow]

WHAT? :eek: You don't know the time of day you started it? EGADS!!! Somebody's been sneaking into Dr. Hamilton's cabinet at S.T.A.R. Labs again, haven't they????LOL:p:D

[Jesse321]

By the time that FB is done ... he will end up like the Phyco Pirate at the end of COIE ... and a prime candidate for the Arkham penthouse suite ... next Poison Ivy of course. :D

[DrayvensCrow]

Better that than like Kara did....*orders an anti-psychotic for FB*