Pre-Episode Discussion of "Sins Of The Mother"

[Helena Kyle]

Barbara (Dina Meyer) and Helena (Ashley Scott) learn the truth about Dinah and Dinah learns the truth about her own past when her mother, Carolyn Lance (guest star Loughlin), comes to New Gotham in search of the daughter she abandoned years before. Dinah is shocked to learn that Carolyn was once Batman’s protégé, Black Canary. Meanwhile, Helena learns that Detective Reese (Shemar Moore) has family issues of his own when he becomes secretive about a ruthless gangster.

Episode Info HERE (http://www.birdsofpreyonline.com/codex/?episode=105).

Spoilers HERE (http://www.birdsofpreyonline.com/spoilers/index.php#105).

[Ted]

I'm really looking forward to the episode and a hopeful focus on Dinah, not Helena. Yeah, the trailer was more focused on Helena, but that's the WB's promotional department, not the writers who put the episode together. I am really looking forward to seeing Lori Loughlin as the Black Canary, though I'm not sure she's going to end up using her Canary cry at all. Only time will tell on that part. But it's nice to see them building such a strong female hero-and-villain coterie with Babs, Helena, Dinah, Catwoman, the Canary, Harley, etc. I hope they keep it up, as even the pictures of the four women together in the Clocktower have me looking forward to seeing the group interacting.

[capedcrus8r]

Let's hope Dinah gets some good screen time. I think she's gonna be a good part of this show. She just needs something to do! And of course the wonderful Lori Loughlin....can't wait!

[giggle_box_sam]

I am really looking forward to this episode because it seems less Helena related and more of the other characters. Detective Reese and Dinah related is always a plus in my books :D I am most inflamed to watch this episode and tape it to watch repeatedly after. :D

[jinnyb]

This episode has potential for some truely heart wretching scence between the characters.
expesially when you consider they are going to have to help dinah get over what ever the writers use to write dinahs mother out at the end.

[giggle_box_sam]

Oh, definately :D You guys have to know that I'm coming here the second it ends just to talk endlessly on it ;)

[jinnyb]

oh well I'd like to see both in balance. Just as long as its not all the huntress every time

[Kea]

I wonder if Barbara is going to have to hold Helena back when Carolyn says that to her.
I can't wait.

I think it will focus on Dinah more (even thought I really don't mind so much Helena story lines!) ;)

[Helena Kyle]

The WB have now added the official trailer for this episode, you can view it here :

http://i.cnn.net/thewb/trailer/quicktime/BP104-trl.mov

[LilahMorgan]

I'm looking forward to more Dinah. Rachel Skarsten is a good actress, so it's nice to see something focusing on her character, should give Rachel a real chance to shine.

And I second the whole Barbara holding Helena back. Helena's got a temper and her mom's obviously a touchy subject.

[Dark Phoenix II]

Black Canary was Batman's protege? Is that Canon?

Anyways...Dinah rocks and I am *so* looking forward to learning more about her...:D

[AngelQueen]

I'm definitely looking forward to this episode as well! We'll finally get to see the circumstances surrounding Dinah's life in Missouri and how she came to be there!

I'm definitely curious as to what Dinah's reaction will be when the person she probably once called Mommy suddenly appears out of no where for the first time in over a decade. I mean, if I were in her position, I would have some major resentment stored up, just waiting for the opportunity to rear its head.

Sure, Carolyn Lance gave her daughter up to protect her from the Hawke family and to keep her from becoming like her mother: a hero with a burdened sense of justice, but could a five-year-old have understood that? From Dinah's point of view, she probably saw her mother's abandonment as punishment for something she'd done, as though it were her fault somehow.

Dina wants to be a superhero, like Helena. Being abandoned by her mom didn't stop that desire. If anything, it fueled it.

So this episode can go in so many different directions! I most certainly can't wait for next week. *grins*

AQ

[tvfanatic]

Originally posted by Oracle
I am really looking forward to seeing Lori Loughlin as the Black Canary, though I'm not sure she's going to end up using her Canary cry at all.

I am watching Charmed and they just showed a preview for 'Sins of the Mother' and it was basically the same promo from the ones we've been seeing but this one is promoting Lori Loughlin as the Black Canary and the preview includes Canary using her Canary Cry. This preview has a few new shots and is pretty cool. They should of been showing this preview all along. It does a good job of promoting Lori Loughlin equally along with Ashley Scott instead of just promoting Ashley as Helena/Huntress.

[tvfanatic]

I was just rewatching the preview I saw earlier (I taped it since I was taping Charmed) and the preview shows Black Canary using her Canary Cry against Helena. I just thought I'd pass that along for anyone that was doubting that Black Canary would use her Canary Cry. Now the only question is why use it against Helena? Does she really hate Helena just because she is Catwoman's daughter? Because not every daughter is just like her mother.

[sailordom]

I'm really looking forward to seeing Dinah get some more screen time. I realize that the Huntress is essentially the main character of the show, but even supporting characters should get get their chance to shine.

And from a purely foolish fangirl perspective, I can't wait to see who the Black Canary in the TVverse is. I had wondered how the writers were going to introduce her, as it's obvious that this is a JSA-less (and hero-less in general) universe. I can live with her being yet another one of the Bat's trainees....It makes some kind of sense--neither Canary was ever a part of the Bat family (until Dinah hooked up with Babs), but they did have roots in Gotham. I think this episode will give us a better idea of what the whole mythos the writers are working within is all about.

Lita

[jinnyb]

I don't think The huntress is the nmain character. Or a least she wasn't meant to be. But right now they think she is the one who will get the viewers. too bad :(
i think they make a better emsemle then side kicks

[Cassandra Cain]

Originally posted by sailordom
I think this episode will give us a better idea of what the whole mythos the writers are working within is all about.


I hope so. I am the type of person that tries to figure out the logical order of things, and not knowing what they're keeping from the existing 'mythology' and what they're changing frankly is making me nuts lol. I guess I need to stop trying to fit this world into DC's world, but I don't know how to do that :D

[Psychic Oracle]

I for one cannot wait for this episode! Lori Lougin as the Black Canary... the Canary Cry that was shown during Charmed looked so cool! I can't wait! Only three more days!

[sailordom]

Originally posted by Cassandra Cain
I hope so. I am the type of person that tries to figure out the logical order of things, and not knowing what they're keeping from the existing 'mythology' and what they're changing frankly is making me nuts lol. I guess I need to stop trying to fit this world into DC's world, but I don't know how to do that :D

LOL. I just try to shrug it all off as being part of a really weird Elseworlds. One in which no one's apparently very smart. :D
But seriously, the writers started out with such a weird hybrid of pre-Crisis and post-Crisis continuity mixed up with other...stuff...that I think it's impossible to fit it into the DCU. I think seeing the TVverse version of Black Canary will give us more hints as to what Gotham and the universe is all about. It'll at least give us an idea of where they're coming from and what they think is important....

And jinnyb, it's just IMO, but I get the feeling that Huntress is very much intended to be the main character. Not only is she portrayed as such in the promotional materials (take a look at all of the ads--especially the print ones--before the premiere), but all of the episodes so far have been written as such. To make an analogy to another show: Helena is the Buffy of BoP, Oracle is the Giles, and Dinah is the Willow/Dawn character. The plots are all about Helena and they're also told from her perspective.

Personally, I would prefer for Helena to take less prominence, but I don't think the writers see it that way.

Lita

[LisaM]

I saw an article/interview on Electronic Media with the 2 head promo guys at The WB. The article was touting their success. In the article, they said that they chose to focus the promos on the daughter of Batman and Catwoman since they thought it would capture the audience.

I, too, lament the focus on Huntress to the exclusion of the other 2 characters. Perhaps the initial focus on Huntress was to try and draw a male audience. I am hoping that, as the series progresses (assuming that it does) , the attention will be more evenly split. I choose to think that the writers are still figuring out where they want to go with the show. Unlike Joss Whedon who has the entire year planned in advance, I can see this as being more of a week to week thing.

[jinnyb]

I think those who concieved the show wanted it to be more even. And that possibly barbara was the leader. {see the wb description. given on this site} but the powers that be see Helena as a marketing tool, and like so many other shows risks loosing the intended focus, for what they think people want.

(joss weadon has some amazing quality control, other shows should take note. even an walk on extra from the first season is played by the same person every season as his character grows)

[sailordom]

While the show may not have been originally conceived of as a vehicle for the Huntress, I think that's what it's turned into. At least, that's how the show is being written--and I think the promotion flows pretty organically from there. So far, the show has about her--the plots have all (until maybe this week) focused on Helena. It wouldn't be accurate for the promos for the show to advertise all three characters equally--that's not even how the show's been written. Harley Quinn is even being set up as Helena's enemy--that is, they've made it personal for her.

And LisaM, I think you're probably right about the male demo being the reason why the Huntress is the focus of the promos (and maybe the show). That seems to be what the WB attributes CHARMED's success to, so I think that's probably true.

I also think that you hit what's wrong with this show right on the head: There's no plan. It kind of goes back into what I said in the "Three Birds and a Baby" thread about how this show doesn't know what it's about. This show doesn't know what it's trying to say--and as a result, it doesn't have a direction. A big part of what makes SMALLVILLE work is that the producers are going somewhere with it--you get the feeling (rightly) that they know exactly where they'll be three or four years from now. I get the feeling the BoP writers don't know where they'll be (or where they'd want to be) five episodes from now.

Lita

[jinnyb]

it took charmed untill right brfore shannon quit to figure it out, so hopefully the PTB will gibe BOP time.

They have some good material to work with.

[Ted]

Well, we're heading to episode five, and I have a feeling the writers planned for only the first thirteen - they don't know what's going to happen next year and probably will start planning if they get picked up. But then again, maybe I'm wrong. I have a feeling that could be contributing, however.

And as for the show being concieved as an ensemble piece, it doesn't seem to be. The head writer has said time and time again how great Huntress is and how interesting, and it seems she's the focus. I have the same problem with Charmed - the head showrunner (Brad Kern) focuses on one sister out of the three. Unfortunately, in any triple-ensemble show, there's going to be a focus on one person most, and I'm not surprised it's not Dina Meyer. Come on - she's sexy and seems intelligent (in interviews) and I sure think she acts the best out of the three, but she's in her mid-thirties, which on the WB, equals zero attention. Did you guys see the promotional material for Raising Dad? Bob Saget was the most well-known actor there, and a household name, sure, but every commercial and promo was all about the actress who played his teenage daughter (Kat Dennings?). I'm surprised they show Reba MacEntire (spelling may be off there) as much as they do in her commercials, because most of them seem to be pushing Joanna Garcia (who plays her teenage daughter) and the actor who plays Joanna's onscreen beau (Um, Steve Howie? Or that may be terribly, completely off.). The WB is a young network and they push the younger people. The young, beautiful group of show leaders are the people they choose to promote (Joanna, Kat, Ashley, Alyssa Milano) to draw in viewers (young guys who will lust after them, and young girls who will want to be like them). Dina simply falls out of that range, unfortunately. It's too bad, because I would expect her character to be the focus here, and she seems like she's being ignored.

[jinnyb]

well lauren graham gets some attention, and she's in her early thiries too. on charemed I don't know why they give holly marie coombs so little attention, but at least she gets story lines.
here- rachel is only 17, in fact they have three different ages groups which could not only prove interesting story wise but demo graphically.

what intriges (SP?) me as far as orginal intentions is the following quote from the wb

"As the leader of the "Birds of Prey," Barbara has gone from being Batman's protégé to the leader of a new generation of crime fighters who are determined to carry on his legacy. To her own surprise, Barbara finds that the responsibility of family - even a self-made family like these three amazing women - is ultimately just as important as any mission to save the world."

[Helena Kyle]

Wooohooooo! Airing tonight guys :D Its gonna be one hell of an ep ;)

[birdsofpreyfan]

I can't wait for this eppy! Only seven hours to go! My favorite character is Helena, but I am really looking forward to a Dinah centered show. I hope that we'll get a Barbara centered one too. It will be cool to get to know the others main characters a little more. I love it when the three ladies are interacting with each other. That's the soul of the show. They are a great ensemble. I love this show! On a side note, have you guys seen the petition? It's up to like, 1100 signatures now! That's awesome!:D

[Huntressfan]

9:00 can't get here fast enough! :D

[sailordom]

Okay, you know what's bugging me?

Despite my hopes for a Dinah-centric plot, the promos and commercials for tonight's episode are really getting on my nerves.

Instead of being promoted as "Dinah's superhero mom appears," this episode is being promoted as "the worst enemy of Helena's mom appears." *Grrrr*.

::sigh:: See, this is what happens when you hear the same radio commercial every other commercial break for two and a half hours. Thank god I only work three hours on Wednesdays....

Here's to hoping that this episode does not turn into yet another "Oh, woe is me, I am the Huntress" episode....

Lita

[LisaM]

So long as they keep promoting Lori Loughlin as the Black Canary, I think it is okay. Since only comic book readers would know the importance of the Black Canary, I think that TPTB may have realized that they angered this segment of the audience and that they need them to come back. For me, the key is to get the ratings up this week. Otherwise, we have no show to improve.

If the ratings improve (fingers crossed) and we get a full season order, there are a lot of things that I would improve, starting with More Oracle and Dinah and less Huntress. The promos would also change to fit the more balanced approach. However, first things first...promote the hell out of the Black Canary because tonight is truly make it or break it.

[sailordom]

Actually, the commercials I heard all day didn't even mention the Black Canary. They just said "guest-starring Lori Loughlin." It's all "the worst enemy of her (Helena's) mother returns."

And while I couldn't swear to it, I think some of the TV spots are worded that way, too.

Which isn't the way I'd put it--I think a lot of viewers are probably turned off by it since it's more Huntress, Huntress. I think playing off of the "Dinah's mother" angle would have worked better. I'm not sure playing up the Black Canary thing makes a whole lot of sense from a ratings-standpoint. For one, those comic book readers that fit into the show's target demo (12-34) are in the upper third or so of it. Second--assuming no comic book fans currently watch the show, which I don't think is the case--an influx of 20-30 thousand (and I'm being generous here) viewers isn't going to matter much.

While I think the show could do a lot by borrowing more from the DCU mythos, I don't think it should be promoted that way. Not enough of the potential audience is familiar enough with the comic books to care.

Having said all of that, though, I'm very interested in tonight's ep and I'm curious to see what the overnights look like.

Lita

[LisaM]

Me too...