I have a complaint!!!! (Beware Spoilers)

[Catwoman101]

I really wish this show would stop saying that Catwoman was evil.

A Thief ------ Yes
A Criminal ------ Yes
An Evil Person ------- No

I've looked over my brothers comic books and I've seen the Batman tv series as well as the cartoons, and here's my take on Catwoman.

She likes to steal, she looks after herself, she's a cat person, and she's good at what she does. (I just described myself! :) ) However there is another side of her. Although she has alternative motives she has saved Batman's, Robin's and yes even Batgirl's life. She didn't have to do that but she chose to do it anyway. Which suggests that even though Catwoman was bad she had tentencies of being good too. Catwoman is a professional thief therefore she doesn't kill (like other villians we know do) and she doesn't like to leave a messy trail behind at the crime scene.

Now Why am I mentioning this? This is why....

This week' episode Helena becomes more like her mother ---- a thief. However I think they're misrepresenting Catwoman in this episode. First of all Catwoman stole for herself not for others. She was never part of any gang of thieves not even from the beginning. And the show makes it look like being a thief was an inherited trait or something which I think is wrong. Catwoman was a thief because she chose to be one, not because she was born to be one. I think Helena should understand that.

And another thing.......Shame on Barbara Gordon!!!!!!!
Helena doesn't know anything about her mother as Catwoman, but Barbara does and I think it's wrong that Barbara doesn't talk about Catwoman to Helena. I mean about what I was saying before that Catwoman wasn't completely evil.

It really pisses me off when I hear the intro to this show and they state that Catwoman was the evil queen of the criminal world or something like that. They have to really stop this crap. I happen to be a loyal, and thee number one fan of Catwoman and I Know everything there is to know about her and I hate it when people don't get their facts right and screw up with her character. :mad:

With this said let me add that although I haven't seen this week's episode yet, I hope that I won't be completely upset and disappointed on whatever false information is said about Catwoman if anything is said about her at all. I have a feeling that although this week's episode will be a great one it's going to tick me off because of the whole Catwoman thing.

[Ted]

They don't say evil, and I in fact don't remember anyone calling her evil. They say "queen of the criminal underworld". As for this upcoming episode - beware, spoilers - Helena goes along with it because she has been told that they don't hurt anyone, just steal (and is shocked to discover the group is behind a car bombing). This giving in to the "darker" side and following in her mother's footsteps obviously indicates that Catwoman did not play by the highest set of morals, but does not indicate she is evil or a killer.

[jhowlett]

Yup a criminal yes, but evil I don't think so...

[Catwoman101]

Originally posted by Oracle
They don't say evil, and I in fact don't remember anyone calling her evil. They say "queen of the criminal underworld". As for this upcoming episode - beware, spoilers - Helena goes along with it because she has been told that they don't hurt anyone, just steal (and is shocked to discover the group is behind a car bombing). This giving in to the "darker" side and following in her mother's footsteps obviously indicates that Catwoman did not play by the highest set of morals, but does not indicate she is evil or a killer.

They might not of said evil although in one episode someone said that. (I forgot the ep) Anyway the show does protray her as evil.

[jhowlett]

Because they associate as crime to be evil...thats all...

[Ted]

Originally posted by Catwoman101
They might not of said evil although in one episode someone said that. (I forgot the ep) Anyway the show does protray her as evil.

Hmm... they say they fight the forces of evil. I don't recall them saying she was evil.

The show portrays her as evil how? They've shown her twice - in costume with Batman, and walking the streets with Helena and getting stabbed. They talk about the fact she was a thief. But they don't touch on her that much and I can't say I've ever found that they have made an assumption or connection to the idea of Catwoman being evil. The Canary wasn't her friend, and I can understand that, but other than that, there hasn't been much mention of her criminal misdeeds.

[Hecate]

At least they dropped that "instincts of a killer, conscious of a hero" that, arguably, could describe Batman himself, -- so at least it may be sinking in that she's not homicidal.
As to Queen of the Criminal Underworld that's an old "nickname" used over the years in the comic books --though I think it was just Queen of the Underworld when it was more generally understood that the underworld = criminal. It just recognizes her rank among Batman's enemies. It's an appropriate match for Caped Crusader in the intro-- doesn't make her especially evil at all.
But I would like them to clear up what they think of Catwoman because the little snippets of dialogue by Barbara are a bit troubling. Catwoman herself is very much a torn character as Huntress and not just a thief. I hope they don't pigeon-hole her that way as it is not true of the character at all.

[Bel]

I didn't think they were portraying her as evil, just as a criminal, and therefore the opposite of Batman. Was just to show that Helena could easily have taken a different path...and still could

[Shadow Huntress]

Originally posted by Bel
I didn't think they were portraying her as evil, just as a criminal, and therefore the opposite of Batman. Was just to show that Helena could easily have taken a different path...and still could

i agree with you bel, by giving her two different ways to go, it adds more dynamic to her story and to the show....

[Catwoman101]

OK maybe you guys can help clear something up for me.

If Catwoman isn't evil then why doesn't Barbara talk about her with Helena?

Why doesn't she say, "Hey your mother was a thief but you know she did play semi-hero too."

It just seems that every time Helena thinks of doing something evil there is this instant link to Catwoman.

I just feel that they dismiss Catwoman as the bad one and only the bad one. And I think that's wrong.

Like Batman was a freakin angel from heaven!!!! PLEASE

[jhowlett]

'Coz she wasn't even an 'anti-hero' She was a a thief that Batman had a tough time with. Sometimes they help each other but that doesn't mean that Selena became a semi-hero...She did it for a favor...much like in the comics where she helped Batman catch this criminal in return Batman would let her quit her Catwoman ways and just let her live her life...in which case eventually they got married and had a daughter, Helena Wayne...

[Hecate]

Anti-hero is not the right word mainly because what we've been describing is not what an anti-hero is--sorry if I used that term and got everything off track.
Look guys in every incarnation of Catwoman she's played hero every now and then and not just in helping out Batman to avoid capture though certainly that. Every comic version (including current one where she's sort of Robin Hood-ish and has just donated proceeds from a robbery of bad guys to build some sort of community center of all things; in the hot-selling new Batman series she'll be helping out Batman in at least half of a year's story arc); pre-Crisis reformed thief/crime-fighter more than once and in the particular story which led to them getting married she had turned herself in and was in jail when Batman got her to help him.
Now I have no idea what the show plans to say about Catwoman--they tend to do what they want but I can't help but comment on the character when this subject comes up.
You're right, Catwoman 101, Barbara nor anyone else has said any of the things I have about Catwoman's standing but I'm just giving my take on the way she's been portrayed elsewhere. They haven't said anything much at all so everything is just speculation right now. I just have my preferences and theories about what would fit into the BOP story as we know it so far. Nothing I've said contradicts what has been revealed but not much has been revealed.

[Ted]

Originally posted by Catwoman101
OK maybe you guys can help clear something up for me.

If Catwoman isn't evil then why doesn't Barbara talk about her with Helena? Because this is not the Batman & Catwoman Show. Discussion of Catwoman will be used when necessary and relevant, not just at random times to please all the Catwoman fans. You have to remember when a show is translated to screen (small or silver), it is adapted and made for the mainstream audience, not just fans of the comics (X-Men, Spiderman, Batman, etc.). With only five episodes under the belt, the show needs to build its own world and characters, and sitting around expositing about their personal pasts will put people to sleep, especially if they can't understand it - there's no place for Helena and Barbara to sit around for forty minutes discussing Catwoman and her struggles and indecision between being a criminal or hero, especially because continuity-wise, they've done all that in the past seven years they've lived together. Dinah is new to their world and new to the city and serves as the audience's guide exploring what is new and what the boundaries of their world are - Helena and Barbara have done that between themselves already. The best way to introduce us to their backstories is different storylines that allows the information to come out in a relevant manner, especially when a large percentage of the audience don't expect any sort of Catwoman stories (and some may not even know who she is).

Why doesn't she say, "Hey your mother was a thief but you know she did play semi-hero too." See above; she's probably already had these conversations dozens of times with Helena when the latter was a teen and after her mother had been killed. To bring it up now would be out-of-place. Plus, we have no idea what Catwoman's life was like in their universe, so we don't for a fact that she was a semi-hero at all.

It just seems that every time Helena thinks of doing something evil there is this instant link to Catwoman. I just feel that they dismiss Catwoman as the bad one and only the bad one. And I think that's wrong. Like Batman was a freakin angel from heaven!!!! PLEASE Because Catwoman was a criminal, and Batman wasn't part of Helena's life - so there's no real way to pin on him some of Huntresses' darker instincts or morals. She said to Quinzel that her mother would have killed for her father - how does she know this? Obviously her mother was not an angel either in rearing her daughter. Canary indicated that her childhood was less than model ("Oh, that's right, she was too busy stealing your childhood"), which is just a hint for future explanation and storylines. The purpose of any show or book series is to keep people coming back for more, no? And you seem to be wanting more, more information on Catwoman, on her role in raising Helena, etc. Aren't they succeeding, if only in that you seek to see certain things in the future? Remember also that since Catwoman was the sole rearer of Helena, and sociologically, most morals and values are instilled within children before the age of 10 (because after that your mind is set in whatever the way you were raised in, which is why brainwashing is difficult - you have formed your opinions of right and wrong, mostly taken from your parents and teachers), so Helena has no sense of justice from Batman - he never was around to give her one. Which would indicate that Catwoman did some good too, and that Helena was not raised as a hellion with an evil mother, or else she never would have listened to Barbara's tutelage, if she was that far gone to the 'dark' side. So obviously the show is not painting Catwoman as entirely evil, or else Helena would not have any good intentions.

[Catwoman101]

You know what I think?

I think that because of the fact that Dinah is new to the group, talking about Catwoman is important. It helps Dinah as well as others understand who Helena is and where she comes from. In Primal Scream Barbara seemed more comfrotable talking to Dinah about Catwoman than she is talking it with Helena.

Another reason why it's important to mention Catwoman once in a while is because unlike Batman she can't make an appearence on the show. I mean besides in flashbacks.

Oracle--- you stated that some people might not know who Catwoman is/was. This I find very hard to believe. People have to be from Mars not to know who she was. :D LOL On the hand if there are people out there who don't know who she is then don't you think the show should bring her out into the open more?

Now I know that Helena talks about her mother to Harley but she never touched base on a few issues. Barbara hasn't said that much about Catwoman either and giving that she was Batgirl she should bring it up. The reason why she doesn't is because she fears she would lose Helena. Think about this....In "Sins of the Mother" when BC was basically badmouthing Selina in front of Helena, Barbara didn't help her defend her mother. Why? Because she knew that what BC was saying was true. But Barbara knew Catwoman longer than BC, she knew Selina had a good side, yet she remained quiet.

Now if your best friend started badmouthing your mother wouldn't you turn your back on them and leave?

I want to know how Barbara felt about Catwoman! The only way for me to find this out is if she talks about it. And so far I've heard nothing but Batman from her. And yes I know the reason. You don't have to tell me for the millionth time.

Your Turn

BTW I know this isn't the Catwoman/Batman show but they are an issential part of the show. And so far I hear more about Batman than Catwoman that the right term that you should of used was the Batman/Batman show. :p

[Catwoman101]

I just found out where I heard Catwoman and the evil connection. It wasn't on the show it was the stupid annoucer. He said something like...

"She was torn between good and evil. And she'll turn to her mother's darkside."

I know he was talking about Helena but if someone says she has an evil side and her mother was the criminal is that the same thing as implying that her mother was evil too?

Do you see where I'm going with this?

[jhowlett]

Like I said before...people just associate criminality with evil that's all...I doesn't really point to the person herself...

[capedcrus8r]

Catwoman has always struggled with good and evil. Remember Michelle Pfeiffer's portrayal. She killed Max Shrek for what he did to her, but on the other hand she didn't want Penguin to hurt the Ice Princess. She also didn't want Penguin killing Batman, just make him look like a criminal to Gotham City. Whatever benefits her, that's what she does. She will kill, if she deems it necessary.

And by the way, she was metahuman right? She was a cat, right? How do we know she won't make an appearance if cats are supposed to have 9 lives. She could have come back and just not told anyone for fear it would put Helena in jeopardy. She might still be lurking out there....somewhere. This is, after all, comic book/fairy tale land. :-)

[jhowlett]

If this follows Batman Returns, Selena only has one life left and since she was stab...that was probably her last life so go figure?

[Ted]

Last night's ep gave a little more evidence : Catwoman gave up the mask when Helena was born, and Alfred said that Helena would be drawn to a life outside the law - her father was Batman, after all.

No one is pinning it all on Selena as being the evil one, or evil.

[Frostbite]

Originally posted by Catwoman101
you stated that some people might not know who Catwoman is/was. This I find very hard to believe. People have to be from Mars not to know who she was. :D LOL

Hey, not even Julie Newmar knew who Catwoman was, until she got the job.

[Hecate]

"Hey, not even Julie Newmar knew who Catwoman was, until she got the job."

But that was in the 1960s before the TV show made Batman, Robin etc. more well known. Even in the comic books Catwoman had been absent for at least a decade due to sci-fi oriented stories and being replaced by that bland Batwoman character. Michelle Pfeiffer certainly knew who Catwoman was (thanks to Julie Newmar) and was most eager to play a childhood heroine.
She's a very well known character now.