Official Discussion of "Lady Shiva"

[Helena Kyle]

Discuss your thoughts on the episode 'Lady Shiva' here! :D

[Heather]

This episode rocked. It was great to see Barbara walk, even though it was only for a few minutes. Lady Shiva was awesome, especially the stars she through. The fight scenes were awesome, especially the last one. Oh and the guy Dinah liked, was so hot. :D I definitely rate this episode A+!!:D

[Frostbite]

Oh, such a quality episode! Shiva's dead sister! Barbara walking! Lesbian Gabby! Delicious. At one point, Gabby was holding Dinah's hand. It seemed innocent at first, but now...

Man, Birds of Prey is the best Batman show ever!

[LisaM]

Finally...A BARBARA EPISODE! Actually, an episode with even distribution of screen time between Barbara, Helena and Dinah. Even Alfred got into the act.

My favorite episode of the series. More later...

[Ted]

I don't really have much to say at the moment, so let's see...

That "You do your sexy hoo-ha dance" song that played when Dinah walked into the class all sexed up made me burst out laughing. Sorry, that was just a cheesy line.

No one noticing that Shiva and Sandy were one in the same seemed too contrived for me. Shiva wasn't that masked that her face was not identifiable.

I liked the little slip-in about Gabby's sexuality at the end there - just funny and nice and I like that it wasn't a big deal with Gabby coming on to Dinah. Wonder how many slash stories that will spark (combined with their sleepover a few episodes ago).

I loved the little quick bit of Barbara's dream where she was attacked and suddenly leapt to her feet and woke up.

I'll post more later - but Batgirl fights like, well, a girl, and didn't impress me with her ass-kicking abilities.

[trouble]

I loved this episode. It was great to see all 3 major players have somewhat equal time (and less focus on the Reese/Huntress mess). Plus, Alfred wasn't relegated completely to the background. Was good to see a little bit of history with him and Barbara.

Also, I think this had the BEST fighting yet for this series.

[Sxygrrl Huntress]

Wow! I have a new favorite episode! Now if all the episodes would be like this, there would never be talk of cancellation. Was this a different writer? :)

This episode took me through many emotions. Happy to see Helena's face light up, getting to see her friend again, wanting to cry, feeling so sad for Barbara and feeling her pain, loved the part when Dinah was explaining to Barbara that she read that boy's mind. I burst out laughing the whole way through. It was perfect! Seeing Barbara's maturity, her owning up to her mistake was very powerful and her interaction with Helena.

The bit with Alfred at the end was too funny. What did Barbara mean though when she said Alfred called the police on Helena? Was that from the pilot episode where she had to see the shrink for anger management?

This episode featured just enough Reese, the fights were awesome and I cheered so loudly about Gabby that I freaked my cats out! So this episode had a bit for everyone. I loved it!

You see the human side to the villan, they had to confront so many mixed emotions and they still endured.

Let's hope this ep was enough to get the ratings so we can have a shot at a syndications deal.

And yes, I *am* looking forward to some new slash fiction...

What a FABULOUS episode. Two thumbs up!

[Frostbite]

Also, looking back at Prey For the Hunter, the episode where Dinah first goes to school, as Dinah says the line, "If you ever used a zipper, you have Opal to thank for that.", you can see Gabby looking at her in a feeling of, "She is so hot."

And in the lunchroom scene, Gabby punches the girl that calls Dinah "Zipper Girl" in the arm, feeling angry that the objection of her attraction has just been insulted. Then, as Dinah walks away in shame, Gabby is the only one that seems to care. So many tiny things you don't pick up the first time around.

[Helena Kyle]

Originally posted by sxygrrl
Was this a different writer? :)

Surprisingly NO! It was exactly the same writing team as last week :)

Story by : Edward Kitsis & Adam Horowitz
Written by : Adam Armus & Kay Foster
Directed by : John Kretchmer

[bigguye7]

What can I say...this episode was the one we have been waiting for!each of the actresses shined in this episode.Dina Meyer was wonderful,showing nuances and feelings we never saw before.It is long overdue to see her really getting into her character.Her scenes with Alfred were so poignant,you really felt the love and more importantly the respect they have for one another.Dina can make you feel her pain just by the expressions on her face.This was a true tour de force for her and she rose to the challenge beautifully!
Dinah-what can I say,how wonderful to see her in school with a nice little subplot of her own.Rachal is so great at showing Dinahs innocent/outsider side.It was in perfect character for her to use her powers to get a guy she likes>although how any guy could not notice her is beyond me!I will never forget the slow motion scene of her walking into the classroom!HOO-HAA!!!And nice scene were we find her friend Gabby is a lesbian.You wonder why Gabby is not interested in Dinah?Although you know they never would have been brave enough to have Dinah be a lesbian.
Although for once Huntress did not have a whole lot to do Ashley was still great in her scenes with Dina,they have such a great chemistry!
As for Lady Shiva,she was not the one i know from the comics but they made her fit well enough into the tv continuty.I wish we could have explored her past a little more but thats a minor quibble.
I still could not quite figure out how she was Helenas best friend and still was a major enemy of Batgirl.Would not there be a age difference?I think it would have been better to just make her an old enemy of Batgirl and thats it.It seems to me they only had her be Huntresses best friend so huntress would have more to do in the story.
That aside this was a fantastic episode with the action and characterzation we have all wanted.What a shame the series is now cancelled...this episode proves they had a lot to show and build on.
My favorite episode of the series thus far,great direction by John Kretchmer!My grade:A+

[Heather]

I wish this episode was put on earlier in the season. Maybe it wouldn't have gotten cancelled. It's just not fair. With every passing episode, I love the show and the characters more and more. I thought that part was funny too, when Gabby confessed she was lesbian. I like how they didn't Dinah, freak out.

[Ted]

I know what's really bothering me. Shiva is what now, 40? I mean she kinda looks 40, no offense to her - she certainly doesn't look Helena's age. Eight years ago, Helena was 15 and in high school, and Sandra is Helena's high-school friend. Then how come Sandra eight years ago in the flashback was pretty much the same age she is now? She was NOT a fifteen-year-old actress and it makes no sense for her to have been a vigilante then if they were pretending she was 15.

Can anyone make some sense of that?

[Frostbite]

I think Lady Shiva had a little sister, Sandy, who died in the explosion. Shiva looked enough like Sandy too pull of the charade.

[Ted]

The only thing that would make sense is if Shiva's sister was really Sandy, not Shiva, and Sandy was Helena's friend but was killed - which is why she "disappeared". How can Shiva pass herself off as Sandy then?

[Ted]

I guess. I still think Shiva looks too old to be Helena's friend and she must have read her little sister's journal to know all of the old stories.

[Mandy]

I LOVED this episode!! And surprisingly my entire family ended up watching it with me. One would sit down and watch and then another and then another and then finally my brother sat down also.

I also noticed they reused some footage of Helena sliding across the floor during hers and Lady Shiva's fight.

I agree with you about how Shiva's little sister could have been Helena's friend and that's why she 'disappeared' But this is my favorite episode yet.

[Frostbite]

I guess she looks enough like her. And also, this episode was originally meant to be episode number 4, meaning Dinah did go to Gabby's house after she knew about Gabby's orientation.

::salivates::

[photoego]

This should have been the pilot. This is by far the best episode...well written..acted..etc...

Glad I taped the show.

[Ted]

Oh yeah. Okay, guess that sleepover really was a dirty event.

But she knew Sandy's habit of calling Helena by her last name and all ten of her most embarrassing high school moments? Just can't buy it.

[Birds of Prey]

I thought the episode was good. I am happy that we get to experience Dinah's powers more. One thing that I do not get it, Can she control her powers? So, she can not see the inner thoughts of people? I really did like this episode, is it the last one? And Ted or Matt Can you please change my username to Birds of Prey ir nobody has it or change it from clocktower to The Clocktower? Whatever one is easier - Please Do!!! :D And also Ted you did not send me that email that you said you would. Please give me a PM if you would rather talk about it only. Thank You!!! :)

[Frostbite]

Why do you think Shiva knew that habit? People that used to call me "Danny" when I was younger now call me by my last name. It's all a matter of aging.

[Ted]

Yeah, but did you question them when they first started saying it? I'm just saying if someone who hadn't seen me for years just called me by my last name I would've questioned it, so I am assuming it was something Helena and Sandy did back when they were in high school. It still doesn't explain how she knew the embarrassing moments.

Either way, I don't think I can buy it.

If anyone needs to contact me, PLEASE do so through PM or email. Threads are not personal conversations nor should they be made into such.

[Empress Vader]

I can't even gather my thoughts on this one. I didn't like they were making Barbara "magicaly" walk, honestly and I thought the misleading Batman promos were a bad move.

But wow, this was the best episode ever. I'm glad they didn't make the walking simple or easy, what she did was not only a risk because it might make her condition worse, but it wasn't exactly painless either. You really got to connect with the characters this week and feel the importance of the Helena/Barbara relationship. However, I too was thinking her 15 year old sister, 8 years ago, would have been the same age as Helena. The whole Shiva/Sandy connection had me scratching my head, unless she was ahead of Helena at school it didn't make sense. I thought the fifteen year old sister took on the Shiva persona because her sister was killed by Batgirl, but since they seem to imply Shiva was the same Shiva, I remain confused. But anyway, they made up for it with a great story. We finally got to see Dina Meyer sink her acting teeth into some real material. And the the relationships between Sandy/Helena and Helena/Babara were played off each other well. And Alfred even had great screen time.

Dinah and Gabby. Well, no more asking "who the heck is Gabby?" There she is and a she's a lesbian. The boy was lame, but it was worth it for the Gabby storyline. I love Rachel, she's so cute, I loved her trying to do the whole sexy thing, to bad it was for that stupid boy. And it gave us a little of naughty Dinah, using her powers for personal gain. I love that girl, she's so adorable.

[jinnyb]

Finally an episode like they should have had all along.
just enough resse, and A little of all three woman.
Also we got to see them at work and school as well as fighting.
And DInah was the one in danger witch makes more sense then heleana because we no she has the power to get out of it. Dinah's powers are more mental. Though she could have fought a little more.
The onlt thing I missed was maybe barbara explaining to dinah why she blew her off about the mis-use of power thing. (which was fun to see, I mean what 16 year old wouldn't)
Too bad there cancelling because they finally proved they could do it.

[AngelQueen]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Wasn't this episode originally supposed to be, like, the third episode, but they moved it back to make room for the others?

This should have been right up front! One of the greats! The episode that could have kept the show alive!

I wonder what the ratings for this are. I hope they've improved! *starts to hope* Even if it doesn't save the show, it would be nice to see that maybe some of our hard work paid off. ;)

Dina Meyer was absolutely wonderful tonight! When we saw her stand up to face Shiva and apologize, I was trying to decide on whether I should start cheering loudly or start crying. The emotions that flew across her face were heartbreaking to me. You could see the guilt and regret of what had happened that night, as well as the physical pain she had to have been in.

Ashley Scott and Rachel Skarsten did take a little bit of a back seat to Dina tonight, and it worked out perfectly. Their little subplots in this episode were great. Helena's acute embarrassment when she finds Sandy telling Dinah, the "little sister," about Helena's most embarrassing moments in high school was great, as were the bits we saw of Dinah at school with Gabby and the cute guy. *grins* That little revelation about Gabby was an awesome touch! :D

We didn't get to see much of Shemar Moore tonight, but it was appropriate. There wasn't much for him to do tonight. But that's okay. As much as I adore the guy, we need to give the others a little bit of screen time.

And finally, we got to see Ian Abercrombie shine! *cheers* Finally Alfred does something more than toss out a witty comment here and there. He even mentioned Dick Grayson! *bounces*

My take on the whole "How could Shiva be Sandy, Helena's best friend from high school?" thing was that Sandy was the little sister of Shiva, who died that night when the building exploded that night. So "Sandy" did disappear, as Helena said. Then, in the present day, Shiva returns to Gotham to avenge Sandy's death, and poses as Sandy in order to keep Helena from becoming suspicious. The resemblence-along with a little make-up-was probably close enough to fool them. After all, "Sandy" hasn't been around in almost a decade. Of course she's changed.

The episode tells us that we have to face up to our actions. Barbara felt that she had to face up to the fact that she was a contributing factor that caused Sandy's death and Dinah had to face up to the fact that she used her powers unethically and peeked into the cute guy's mind without his permission.

And opposite of that, Shiva poses as her little sister (if my theory is correct) because she does not want to face up to the fact that she was also a contributing factor to Sandy's death. Instead she tried to take the girl's place and avenge her by destroying all that Batgirl held dear to her heart. It was Shiva's actions that led Batgirl to confront her that night, so Batgirl is not alone in playing an unwitting part in Sandy's death.

I give this a definite 5 (*****) Star rating! Everyone tonight shone in their own, distinct way! *grins*

Why can't we see more of wonderful stuff like this?

AQ

[trolleyperson]

I guess. I still think Shiva looks too old to be Helena's friend and she must have read her little sister's journal to know all of the old stories.

LOL.

I was thinking the exact same thing! I mean if this Sandra chick left before Selina was killed, Helena would've had to have been 15/16. So, if they were in the same grade, how come Sandra's sister sucked so much that she wasn't kick ass like Sandra herself, or where were their parents? Like two 15 year old kids, don't just get to play house together in a nice apartment like that.

[Kea]

Oh my God this episode rocked. Barbara story line.Three stories that come together. Not to much Reese and Helena.
And the fights. And Alfred. Flashbacks and talks about Helena's mom.
Still need to get rid of the Alfred intro but we can work around that.
I really liked that it showed why Barbara is so worried about Helena killing someone. And seeing the character interactions. And how they are like a family.
And go Gabby. LOL to Alfred who called the cops just in case! And we have a human villain.
Plus some incorporation of past eps was good.

I just figure Sandy was Shiva from 8 years ago and that maybe her sister was really the one who died.
Or 15 year old Sandy did die when she became Shiva. Not so sure now!

And the WB is canceling this show why?

Ok that's it I don't care if letters work or not but this episode has differently has fueled my determination to at least try once more about syndication. It may not work but this episode has really has got me to as least give it another shot! This show rocks!

[LisaM]

A continuation of my earlier post: definitely my favorite episode of the series. The balance of screen time between the 3 leads really made it work. Alfred's scenes were well done, too. The show was written by the same writers - can anyone figure this out?!

Dina Meyer rocked! You really felt her guilt over killing an innocent. I admit that I cheered when I saw her standing in the Batgirl suit. I liked that we got to see the museum-quality room where the Batgirl suit is encased. Nice scenes between she and Alfred.

Loved that we finally got to see Dinah back in school and Helena back tending bar. We needed to see more of their lives outside of the lair. This time, each had their own independent storyline - although Helena and Barbara's came together at the end. None of the 3 leads seemed like an appendage or an afterthought this time. I also liked the opening scene with the 3 of them in the bar. More time out of the lair and in real life was definitely a good move.

I thought that the Dinah school plot was lame but I liked that Dinah didn't overreact to Gabby being a lesbian. We seem to have missed a pivotal scene between the first school episode and tonight - the one where Gabby becomes her friend. In the first school episode, Gabby was simply giving her sympathetic glances.

The bar scene where Sandy was telling Dinah about Helena's most embarrasing moments helped to further establish the Dinah/Helena bond.

The WB promos were definitely misleading: what happened to the scene with Alfred, Helena and Barbara on the balcony discussing "Batman back in Gotham City"? Never made it into the script.

The gaping plot hole mentioned by other posters regarding Shiva/Sandy's age. How could she be Helena's high school friend and also be Batgirl's nemesis 8 years ago? She would have been 15 8 years ago. Didn't make any sense but I really didn't dwell on it.

Very interested to see the ratings. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[Ivy]

...Well, damn. I'm sort of at a loss for words. I really liked "Lady Shiva", even if I did get slightly confused with Shiva/Sandy. Was Sandy, Helena's friend, Shiva from 8 years ago, and if so, what was a 15 year old doing running around being a super thief?
This is what the episodes should have been like from the begining. Everyone got a plot and at some point they all collide head on. Enough humor that I found myself snickering in places, more than enough drama to go around, and a backstory that shouldn't have scared off any newbies.
Here's hoping the ratings went up enough for us to at least feel vindicated in our efforts. < hopes >
Oh, and to cement my geekiness. Gabby. Like Gabby and Xena. Tee. Anyway. Back to hoping for ratings joy.

[Neptune's Rose]

This episode was the best.
That thing with Gabby was really cool.
I liked how they didn't end the show with them in front on the clocktower, which would've been boring and predictable.
This ep. had a nice balance between all of the characters. Helena meeting a high school friend again. Dinah trying to impress that guy, and Babs trying to deal with a past mistake that she made.

[Shadow Huntress]

very impressive episode...one of the best developed storylines of the season....it wasn't just focused on one character, the ep was focused on all 3.....i just loved it! especially with barbara walking...something tells me the heels weren't a good idea...it looked like she was gonna fall over at first lol...

[Apollo]

The episode rocked. It had all the great things needed to make birds of prey great. All three leads had screen time, flashbacks, a theme (consequences of your actions), good dialogue, action, emotions, batgirl, Oracle showing great character, furthered the characters.

It finally got good and Birds is ending. how dumb. Everyone write letters to tell wb they have made a mistake.

[merlin9943]

i enjoyed the episode it was great to see dina take the spotlight
i loved the fact that we finally got to see more of helena and barbaras relationship
as for lady shiva
i think she was definitely sandy
the fact that she was 15 when she knew helena
isnt a sign that shiva killed sandy its just bad writiing
l loved alfreds role in this episode
it did kind of bother me dinah didnt use her telekinesis on shiva
you know move the fire extinguisher with her mind something
like that
all in all
a very good episode

[Frostbite]

I thought she threw the extinguisher at her.

[bat-punk]

yeah the episode was cool

[DizzyOracle]

*sob* It was beautiful...

[capedcrus8r]

One thing I don't understand is why did Dinah run from Shiva? Why didn't her training kick in and she start kicking butt? Does Huntress always have to save her?

I've also been thinking about the cancellation. I love this show's concept. I love this show's characters (minus Reese). But the execution of it has really been atrocious if you think about it. Is this a GREAT show? No. I blame the writers. The actors have done an excellent job with what they have been given. There have been two bright lights in this series short run, "Sins of the Mother" and "Lady Shiva." The rest have been lame, lame, lame.

I think the writers have just been pulling episodes out of the air. Where is the consistency?? Why have Harley Quinn as a recurring villain if they aren't going to use her? They should have come up with a plotline that escalated every episode, much in the way ALIAS does. Being such a big fan of the Batman franchise it's clear that so much more could have been done with this series, and it's sad to see it go away. I wish another network would pick it up and re-tool the show, but that's never gonna happen.

[merlin9943]

as far as dinah running from shiva goes
i just dont understand why she ran from shiva when she has the power to move things with her mind
that combined with her marial arts training
she should have been able to hold her own against shiva

its almost as if they introduced dinah to sandy at the start of the show so shiva would take her as a hostage
i guess i dont understand why huntress and oracle goot the big fight scenes
and dinah was written as if she didnt know what to do
the rest of the episode was pretty good but i didnt get a real sense of why barbara considered lady shiva her arch enemy
i mean the jokers an evil fiend who crippled her in the process of trying to kill her and lady shiva was a thief she had trouble catching until that fateful night
just some thoughts
my humble opinions

[merlin9943]

oops!
i think i just double posted ,
sorry

[TheWraith]

I thought the episode was pretty poor. Badly written again, and Shiva was just all wrong. Yet another rich comic book character near ruined. And Barbara walking? Ack, that made the DC Comics staff cringe... as it did me. This episode was as poor as all the resy IMO.

[jhowlett]

Well TBH, everyone here already knows your opinion no matter what episode will be shown...

[Sxygrrl Huntress]

Wraith - do you actually like *any* episode? Do you see *any* good in the episode you just watched? Is there one small portion of the show you actually liked? If so, why not share *that* view for a change.

Surprise us for once...

[Ivy]

Perhaps Dinah ran because she's a kid and not yet a super heroine and could figure out, "Hey. Screwed if I stay here and try to fight some crazy chick who is obviously not here for makeup tips and hanging out all girlie like." Fight or flight, and flight seemed the best option.

But I could just be reading too much into it. ;)

[Empress Vader]

this was meant to be like episode 3 or something, it moved back in the season so I'm sure they made some adjustments since, but when it was originally written Dinah hadn't quite gotten up to the point of kicking butt (like in Primal Scream) and didn't know about her teleknesis. Besides that, Dinah hasn't been training that long. A random thug, she could proably give them a good fight. Someone with real experience, I doubt she has enough skills to defeat them. She knows her limits.

[LisaM]

How do you know that this was supposed to be Episode 3? If so, why was it moved later in the season? It was certainly better written than some of the other episodes by the same writers which were aired before tonight.

[tvfanatic]

Today is Thanksgiving so when do you guys think we'll get the overnight ratings? Will they wait until tomorrow to release them or will it be later today? I really hope that the show did good just so we can all laugh at the WB and you never know great ratings may get them to take a second look.

[Frostbite]

It was actually episode 4, I think.
Quoth Dina Meyer: There will be Batgirl flashbacks. I believe in the third or fourth episode the show starts out with a flashback where I’m fighting my arch nemesis on the rooftops. It’s obviously a flashback because I’m Batgirl. My nemesis comes back for a rematch, and low and behold, much to her dismay she finds me in a wheelchair. So then she goes after Huntress.

[birdsofpreyfan]

I loved this episode. I got a little confused on the Shiva thing as well. I was thinking that Lady Shiva had a 15 year old sister, Sandy, (that would put her right at Helena's age at the time), and that Shiva got killed, but Sandy lived and took over the role of Shiva. Didn't she tell Barbara that "a part of her had died that night" or something? Maybe she was referring to the fact that she lost her youth, innocence, etc when her sister was killed, and became consumed with the need for vengence? That would make Sandy like, mini-Shiva or something? I don't know, I will have to watch it again. Darn, I hate that!:) Hey, does anyone know when we will be getting the ratings reports? I'm dying to know how the show did last night. Well, I am going to go and enjoy some dead bird! HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!!!:)

[MethyLBroMidE]

Thanksgiving Day Greetings!

Finally! I was able to watch two full uninterrupted episodes last night. While I do not feel qualified or experienced enough yet to critique BoP in a meaningful way, for me at least, this is solid enough TV dinner fare, like munching out at the equivalent of Applebee's or Sizzler maybe.

I enjoyed it by taking BoP on it's own terms. by forgetting about the comic book, forgetting about the Batman movies, and suppressing memories of Zena: Warrior Princess, Buffy, Ally McBeal, Jack of All Trades, and Miami Vice.

I was totally expecting Oracle to give Dinah that run-of the mill lecture on how not to use her special powers for personal gain, - uh gotta go feast now, I'm on cooking detail tonight too, more later :)

[AndyPandy88]

Ally McBeal, another fan.... :D

[Catwoman101]

OMG I can't believe this show is cancelling.

This has to be the best episode thus far.

Dina Meyer Rocked! It's about time they did a show that focused on her. She was awesome. She did a wonderful job. I felt the pain she was going through and even when she was walking you could tell it was hard for her to do.

Alfred was great too. He reminded me of how he used to give advise to Bruce.

Helena changed roles in this episode and became more like Barbara. I liked that whole scene where she thought Barbara was trying commit suicide. I also liked that her mother was mentioned a few times in this ep.

I liked the fact that Reese wasn't in it that much. Dinah was great as well, with her impressing the cute guy. Her friend Gabby really put a twist to things when she said she was a lesbian. When she said it at first I thought I was hearing things. I turned to my cat and said, "Did she just say that she was a lesbian?"

Lady Shiva was awesome as well. I was a bit confused on how she could of been Helena's high school friend. That made no sense to me what so ever. But she was still great. I liked the fact that she was a villian without any metahuman powers. The whole show had more of the human side I think. I also loved the fighting scenes. I especially liked how Barbara came to save Helena, by fighting Shiva.

The ending was great to. I laughed when she fired Alfred. LOL And her walking away from her Batgirl suit was a nice touch.

I think what made this episode so great was that it had everything. flashbacks, old villians, little bit of screen time for all the characters, fighting was great, mentions of Batman, Robin, and Selina, and the writing was much better.

The only thing that was missing was Harley. But hey can't have everything. Besides she wouldn't really have had that much of a part in this Ep.

[Frostbite]

Originally posted by Catwoman101
I turned to my cat and said, "Did she just say that she was a lesbian?"

Anyone that talks to their cat can't be all too normal themselves.

[AngelQueen]

tvfanatic said:

Today is Thanksgiving so when do you guys think we'll get the overnight ratings? Will they wait until tomorrow to release them or will it be later today? I really hope that the show did good just so we can all laugh at the WB and you never know great ratings may get them to take a second look.


*snorts with laughter* I was thinking the same thing! I'm dying to know if the ratings improved. I know that it won't bring the show back, but it would be nice to be able to say, "In your face," to the WB with a rating improvement. *grins*

AQ

[Helga_groovy]

OH MY GOSH!!!! this episode was amazing. it is by far my favourite... and the show is starting to get better and better! ... i do, however, find it hard to believe that this episode was written by the same group... very wierd...
i can see why they had put this episode further into the season though, cause it would have been wierd if the relationships of the characters hadnt formed so much...

i hope the rest of the remaining episodes will be just as great... WOO!!!!

[hb695]

I didn't know that Shiva had a sister.

[Gothic Knight]

This was the best episode of BoP so far. It's getting better and better. I really want to see this show saved.

[Neptune's Rose]

I'm really surprised that this ep. was written by the same grp. as well.

[Catwoman101]

Originally posted by Frostbite
Anyone that talks to their cat can't be all too normal themselves.

Excuse me but she was the only one who was in the room at the time. And for your info people who don't talk to their pets are abnormal. Maybe YOU should try it sometime!

[LisaM]

Did anyone else notice that this show had more commercials than any other show ever?! For a show which isn't getting good ratings, the WB managed to sell a ton of advertising time. At one point, I counted 6 commercials back to back.

[Kea]

I was wondering about that LisaM.
But I did love the commercial about the kid who got the bike because her Dad had a temper (do to the old computer) and therefore had to put money in a jar. LOL

[Lance]

Someone who subscribes to conspiracy theories might consider the possibility that the 'Lady Shiva' episode was so good --- and everyone knew it --- that it was placed later on the schedule so it wouldn't interrupt the downward spiral. I can see where someone might think that way ...

[Sxygrrl Huntress]

Yeah, I wondered about that...

[Lance]

It's a little far-fetched, I admit, but if Levin was determined that BoP wouldn't stay, it WOULD be an effective way to 'lose' it ...

[Gothic Knight]

Acording to "Television with out pity" Lady Shiva has earned an "A-". Is A good grade but i would have give an "A+".

[Angel]

An awesome episode. It gave everyone some conflict and I really enjoyed having Helena put Barbra back in her place. It was nice to see her protecting her from herself. Only way it could've been better was if we could've seen Batgirl kick some BUTT! *sigh*

Angel

[Frostbite]

Well, she sort of did in the "eight years ago" flashback. It was kind of campy, actually. Just how I like it.

[Angel]

LOL Yeah but I would love to see her actually be able to fight in one scene. She gets her back device to work and ends up being BG for just one scene...

Angel

[Frostbite]

She was walking like a robot in that scene. It's almost as if she doesn't actually get to use her legs, but she can get the machine to make them move.

[AngelQueen]

That might have to do with the fact that she hasn't used her legs in over seven years. Her muscles are totally out of wack because they haven't been used in so long.

AQ

[Angel]

So true...but I still stand firm that we should eventually get to see more of BG kicking butt. That's why we must save this show. Lady Shiva was totally wacked and when she was expressing her feelings about her sister I felt for her. Kinda a crappy situation and the fight scene was AMAZING!

Angel

[Frostbite]

I don't exactly like the way Batgirl was portrayed in the show. They made it seem as if Barbara didn't even care about anyone.

[rsmolen]

Oracle said this earlier in this thread..

"That "You do your sexy hoo-ha dance" song that played when Dinah walked into the class all sexed up made me burst out laughing. Sorry, that was just a cheesy line."

I was wondering if anyone knew what song this was, I've been searching for it but can't find it. It's not any of the songs listed on thewb.com for this episode. Anyone know?

[Kea]

I have to ask but what was that "You do your sexy hoo-ha dance" song (as rsmolen said)? Who sings that? I hear it the first time and I could not stop laughing!

Also I think this episode had a perfect combination of the three main characters and not to much computer effects.
Good episode. I have to go watch it again!

[Apollo]

Barbara wasn't being Oracle, she was being Batgirl, an impetuous hero. She was concentrating her entire life to confront Shiva and to walk. Then Babs broke down and realized how careless she was after she knew that Shiva's sister was the one killed. At the end she realized that Oracle is a better hero because she cared for others

[DizzyOracle]

Oracle walking as Batgirl did not ruin the character's integrity at all. Bravo!

[trolleyperson]

The "you do your sexy hoo ha dance" song, is Atrixo's, "Audacious"

[Kea]

Thanks for the info trolleyperson! :) Now if I could only get that song out of my head. ;)

[Neptune's Rose]

That song is hilarious!! Thanx for the info trolleyperson, I've been looking for that song since the ep. aired.

[Kea]

LOL I agree its a funny song. Hey Neptunekix if you find it let me know.

[Lance]

I've now seen the tape of 'Lady Shiva' ... and I believe it was VERY close to what I expected from the beginning. The screen time was more evenly divided (read: more for Dina Meyer), and there was a better exploration of personalities. I think it was still bogged down with excessive backstory, a problem the series has had from the beginning, but I chose to view it for what it was and not how it compared to --- or differed from --- the comics. In all, I thought it was pretty well done. And, of course, Dina Meyer was excellent.

[Psychic Oracle]

I have now watched the "Lady Shiva" tape as well. This episode was so much better than I ever would have anticipated. From the Barbara/Batgirl/Oracle storyline was amazing. Dina Meyer did such an amazing job conveying the emotion that Barbara was going through. Ashley Scott's portrayal of Huntress was right on the money, laced with emotion, laced with feeling. Rachel's job as Dinah was great, and she used her powers in ways that I really was hoping she would.

Every character had so much to do this time around. This was the highlight of my season, having the chance to see each character do what they were meant to do. The Helena/Reese relationship was not the focus of the episode, Barbara was. Her frustration, her desire. Everything was exactly as I wanted to see the series from day one. It was great!

[Helga_groovy]

This episode was so great, and I think it's mainly because they integrated more of their lives outside of the "crime fighting" world as well as the equal division of screen time for each actor. The Reese / Huntress storyline is alright, but having them discuss and argue most of the same problems every week can grow tiresome.
Dina Meyer is a great actress and she pulled her parts of so very well, Ashley Scott's acting has improved since the first show, and I think Rachel was a lot better, and how they put in her school life into the story was really good. It allow the younger audience to better relate to her because I bet most of us have gone through that sort of situation where we try to impress someone we like...
Other than the writing, well this is part of the writing, this is probably one of the largest reasons why Buffy and Smallville have prevailed, because it shows the show with more emotion, more life and more depth than just a catching bad guys every week.
Bravo to the writers for being able to pull this off so well.

Have you guys noticed, though, that they've had a different director every week?... wierd..

[Psychic Oracle]

That's the case often with television. Directors come in to do different episodes and if they are well liked, they come back after a few months. For instance, Shannen Doherty directed 3 episodes of Charmed, Jonathon Frakes directed for Roswell, Star Trek the Next Generation, and the Twilight Zone, and LeVar Burton has directed for numerous shows.

And to echo your sentiments about the writers: they did it very well this time around.

[Lance]

Somebody get the name of the 'Lady Shiva' director! The chemistry between the writers, director, and the actors started to work with this one. Kinda leaves a warm feeling to see what should have been from the beginning!

[Psychic Oracle]

I could not agree more!

The director was John Kretchmer, who has directed some amazing series! He has directed for Buffy, Charmed, Star Trek DS9!

If you saw Charmed's 5th Season episode "Happily Ever After" (episode 3 this year) he directed that one! He also directed the second episode of Buffy ("The Harvest"), as well as "School Hard" (when Spike first came to town), and the Star Trek Voyager episode "Once Upon a Time". I've always enjoyed episodes he has directed.

[Neptune's Rose]

So does BoP change directors every ep?

[DizzyOracle]

Yes, just like every tv show out there I believe. They sometime reoccur also.

[Psychic Oracle]

Originally posted by DizzyOracle
Yes, just like every tv show out there I believe. They sometime reoccur also.

Yep! Some directors become an integral part of a series (directing 4 or 5 episodes a season). But that's pretty rare. Usually each episode has a different director. At the end of the season, the producers decide which ones to ask back for the next season.

[Venus E]

"Lady Shiva", an excellent episode. I really like it, a real human interest story. People forget that heroes are also human and they have problems just like everyone else. This should have been the second episode, if it was, the ratings would have gone up and the show would not have gotten cancelled.

The Writers were so busy concentrating on action sequences, superhuman powers, CG special effects that they forgot how to tell a story. And we also had to deal with characters that were so wooden in thinking and moving that we couldn't really care about them. Buffy, Charmed, and Smallville have been successful because these shows are about people first, extra ordinary lives later.

[Frostbite]

It a great episode: A human villain against a human hero, not a single uttering of "metahuman" (in Prey for the Hunter they said it every other sentence), Dinah in school, and of course, lesbians. What makes every show great.

[shiva]

I liked this episode, it was great

[DizzyOracle]

I agree, fantastic episode.

[bat-punk]

It was a good episode, although i liked sins of the mother and slick best.

[Kea]

Ok after re watching this episode again today (loved this one) I think Sandy was the 15 year old teen and that her older sister really died. You would have thought Helena might have know if she had a little sister. Plus 15 is about the age for high school...I think. Its been a while.
And Barbara does say Shiva was a thief not a killer. And the killings started about two years ago.
I think when Shiva says that her 15 year old sister died that she meant herself. That she had to grow up to fast.
Also Sandy looked to be off to the side of the building that blew up. Hope that made sense!

[Ice Storm]

i thought that this episode sucked

[Preyed Upon]

Good episode, and while I agree that Sung Hi Lee is beautiful, it is true that at 32 she looks a lot older than Helena, much more like Oracle's age... wouldn't that have made more sense?

Still hoping for a reversal of the cancellation.

[MUZBNUTS]

I've seen it three times and I think so far this is my favorite episode. And, don't worry Catwoman101, I live alone with 2 cats and have often turned to them and exclaimed in such a manner when there is a totally brain-jarring scene on TV. To start off, it was nice to see Batgirl in action. In the opening scene, did you notice that Dina Meyer did most of her own fighting? I always hate it that I can spot the stunt doubles so easily in shows like these. At first, I thought that people were wrong about Lady Shiva's age inconsistancies. I believed that the survivor was actually the sister. In fact, that may have been more believable age-wise. But then again, they never said that Helena and Sandy were in the same grade together, so Sandy could have been a couple of years older (she could have repeated a grade or had to make up missed schooling or something). That "sexy hoo-ha dance" Dinah walk-in had me cracking up! And I absolutely loved the emotion in the scenes between Helena and Barbara. You could see how much it was killing Helena to know that Barbara was hurting and to not know why or how to help her. And after Barbara faced Shiva out of the chair, the anguish in Helena's voice. It's about time! They're finally getting to the crux of this relationship. If you've seen the original pilot, then you know how hard it would be for Helena if she were to lose Barbara. Seeing Barbara go up against Shiva like that really freaked Helena out. We finally get an explanation as to why Barbara doesn't use the neural enhancer all of the time - it hurts like hell! And as for why Dinah ran from Shiva - well, hell, at this point in her training, she can only beat Huntress by telekinetically throwing stuff at her. What would make her think she could handle Lady Shiva? And, yes, I also bugged when during that scene when Gabby lets Dinah know what her type is. It was great how they handled that one. Some shows tend to dwell on the subject like lesbianism is abnormal. Although not my cup of tea, why should it be such a BIG thing? Glad they didn't have Dinah freak out or do some sort of soul searching thing to discover why her friend was a lesbian or whether she was one. The show does its best in every episode to show the audience that they should embrace their differences - at least that's what I've seen in each episode anyway. On a final note, I give Lady Shiva a really big thumbs up!

[themaninblack]

If only you knew how much was left on the cutting room floor. A rather good scene between Shiva and Helena in the jail after the arrest. Also, the end where Babs, Helena and Alfred muse over the possibility that Batman's presence was felt (?).... As with most shows on TV today, commercials rule the roost, and the editing has become one of the hardest areas in which to achieve a cohesive story line. We the viewers are at the mercy of so many elements that obstruct us from enjoying what should be a pleasure.

[MUZBNUTS]

Well, if the show does go off the air, I hope they release a dvd complete with deleted scenes. You can tell that they cut alot from the show. Quite often, as in the case of the unaired pilot, these scenes are very important to the series. Unfortunate.

[Kea]

dvd complete with deleted scenes -MUZBNUTS
Very true and very much needed. Stupid weather map was in the way!

[msugirl85]

i didn't notice-i'm very bad about channel surfin durin the commercials

[Frostbite]

They should include that map of Gotham Barbara has on her computer.

[GoldFlyingMouse]

Originally posted by Empress Vader
this was meant to be like episode 3 or something, it moved back in the season so I'm sure they made some adjustments since, but when it was originally written Dinah hadn't quite gotten up to the point of kicking butt (like in Primal Scream) and didn't know about her teleknesis. Besides that, Dinah hasn't been training that long. A random thug, she could proably give them a good fight. Someone with real experience, I doubt she has enough skills to defeat them. She knows her limits.

YOUR SIGNATURE IS COOL !!

[Apollo]

I was watching the episode again and wondered what a "PDA" is. Dinah uses that word to explain how she knows all of that guy's personal information and dreams.

[MUZBNUTS]

A PDA stands for personal data access - its a mini-computer / electronic notebook. They've become very popular these days. Sort of like carrying a mini-pc in your pocket.

[Frostbite]

A Palm Pilot, basically.

[Apollo]

Oh a palm pilot. Why couldn't they have just said that? Also people write about their embarassing fantasies in a palm pilot?

[MUZBNUTS]

Wow, loved this episode! Was suffering from BOP withdrawals, so I popped in my BOP tape and watched Lady Shiva! Can't get enough of this one! Now I'm pumped up enough to go to work! I'm actually hoping it's a busy night!

[EKATZ]

We may still read the official description over at http://www.thewb.com/Shows/Episode/0,8201,||1175,00.html. We may also see the gallery pictures at http://www.thewb.com/Popups/PhotoGallery/0,8200,83603~~high,00.html.

[Frostbite]

Who the fuck cares, newbie? Stop spamming.

[hb695]

That episode rocks.

[kcmusic]

Hi Everyone!

I just wanted to make a little statement regarding the writing of Lady Shiva.

The writers were Adam Armus and Kay Foster. These two writers did not write any of the other episodes. Maybe they should hire them for all of the episodes.

If you click under episodes of the main page it tells you who the writers are for each one. One of the episodes says story by Adam Armus but not written by him. Kay Foster is new. Big Difference.

K.C.